Wear areas on Elizabeth II silver dollars question

General discussions about canadian coins.
Hot Brass
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Wear areas on Elizabeth II silver dollars question

Post by Hot Brass » Sat Apr 06, 2013 6:45 am

Hi:
Not sure if this is the proper area to post,but I have about eight Elizabeth II 1953-1967 silver dollars,which are supposedly graded by the previous owners as being "uncirculated" and one that was graded by a third party grading service which graded it as a MS-64.
Since the high points of wear on these coins are the shoulder area,ribbon on back of head,berries and leaves on the laurel,plus a few areas on the front of the face........
anyways,none of my coins have any of this wear on the shoulder,but significant wear on the berries and leaves and none on the face(eyebrow,nose,cheek).
Now my question is....if these coins are supposed to be "uncirculated",how do these other areas I stated become so worn without the shoulder being affected by wear??,especially coins that are not in use by the average consumer,stores,etc. Thanks,Hot Brass
Last edited by Hot Brass on Sat Apr 06, 2013 2:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

verdigris
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Re: Wear areas on Elizabeth II silver dollars question

Post by verdigris » Sat Apr 06, 2013 12:22 pm

.. which are supposedly graded by the previous owners as being "uncirculated"

It could just be a case of someone biasedly grading their own coins ... but not knowing if and when the previous owner(s) took these "uncirculated" dollars out of "circulation", here's what I think may be an explanation ...
Years ago (not sure when it all changed exactly) Charlton was published using E.F. and Unc. as the top grades -- Anything better than what we now grade as EF-40 was considered Unc. There wasn't an AU grade being used, so anything "about uncirculated" (anything better than an obvious EF for that matter) was "mint", and without an MS scale to rate on, we just didn't know any different. Life was simpler back then. :wink:

As for lack of wear on the shoulder, I can only guess that it's there and it's only because it's such a smooth flat area that it becomes indistinguishable. It takes a while (EF - VF) for the shoulder strap to become blurred, and by that time a lot of wear has already taken place between the strap and the bottom curve.


Cheers

Hot Brass
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Re: Wear areas on Elizabeth II silver dollars question

Post by Hot Brass » Sat Apr 06, 2013 12:59 pm

Thanks for that. Why would my one QE II dollar coin which was graded by a legitimate third party be given an MS-64 grade,which is supposed to be of the 'uncirculated' variety,but has lots of wear mostly around the leaves and berries area,also some hair wear at that spot,but the shoulder area is not showing any wear at all,being that this area is one of the 'main wear areas' for this particular coin,I have read. Eyebrow and mouth areas hardly worn if any. How would it get worn so bad if it was uncirculated,which an MS coin has to be to be given an MS grade(I think!)
Is this a mistake by the grading company? Thanks,Hot Brass
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verdigris
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Re: Wear areas on Elizabeth II silver dollars question

Post by verdigris » Sat Apr 06, 2013 1:56 pm

If I take a loonie out of a mint roll and carry it for a year in my pocket with the rest of my day-to-day change, at the end of the year is it circulated or uncirculated?

It's hard to tell but what I see on your dollar is a lot of bag marks and high area rubbing abrasion (scratching). In photographs the wear (the smoothing) from touching and passing gets more difficult to detect the higher the grade. That said, I don't nessesarily disagree with your doubts that this coin may not make the grade it's been opined to be.


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Hot Brass
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Re: Wear areas on Elizabeth II silver dollars question

Post by Hot Brass » Sat Apr 06, 2013 2:48 pm

Hi: I just checked the definition on what an MS-64 grade should be...this taken from the Charlton Standard Catalogue 2013 issue and it says: MS-64 "No traces of wear,with a full strike.Must have full mint lustre with only minor contact marks in the field areas. Must have good eye appeal".("No traces of wear" has me thinking,as this coin definitely has some wear)
The next six grades lower which is VF-20 states "The hairline from above the eye down to the nape of the neck shows wear.The four central leaves of the laurel wreath are worn.The dress folds are clear". This VF-20 grading seems to fit this coin much better! That's a big jump down and even one grade lower yet to VF-20 could also fit.
Next time I buy a "certified" coin,I will look at it with my own eyes and loupe.
p.s. I wonder what grade another TPG service would give this coin?! Thanks

verdigris
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Re: Wear areas on Elizabeth II silver dollars question

Post by verdigris » Sat Apr 06, 2013 3:11 pm

Check this site's few examples of the higher circulated ERII dollar grades here


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Hot Brass
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Location: Ontario,Canada

Re: Wear areas on Elizabeth II silver dollars question

Post by Hot Brass » Sat Apr 06, 2013 3:49 pm

Yeah,my coin should fit between EF-40 and AU-50. Even a MS-60 has less wear than mine and mine is a MS-64!? Mine still has the lustre,but has nicks and scratches.Still can't figure out why they would grade it a MS-64,with all the wear going on around the hair-line and the leaves,especially when MS criteria states "no traces of wear".
O.K., I am gonna quit complaining about this coin and it's questionable grade.....done! :?
Thanks,Hot Brass

verdigris
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Re: Wear areas on Elizabeth II silver dollars question

Post by verdigris » Sat Apr 06, 2013 3:59 pm

should fit between EF-40 and AU-50.


.. but certified - bagged and tagged. It's not like you paid MS price for an uncertified EF. As the saying goes, don't look a gift horse in the mouth I suppose.

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Hot Brass
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Re: Wear areas on Elizabeth II silver dollars question

Post by Hot Brass » Sat Apr 06, 2013 4:27 pm

Hi: Actually,I paid $88.00 plus tax! I know a little bit more now than I did when I bought it,being my first certified coin. I paid about $50 too much I think! So I will make sure what I am getting before buying a certified coin in the future! Hot Brass

Bill in Burl
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Re: Wear areas on Elizabeth II silver dollars question

Post by Bill in Burl » Sun Apr 07, 2013 3:38 am

Why would you get a certified common dollar? The cost of the certification alone costs more than the scrap silver value or what the coin will ever be worth. If the coin that you showed was the "64", then who certified it and is it a qualified TPG? If it's taken through a flip, maybe it's not wear but rather loss of luster from drawer or flip rub. All I can say is to learn how to grade by looking at coins, in hand, at shows or coin clubs. Only then should you start buying them.
Bill in Burl

Hot Brass
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Re: Wear areas on Elizabeth II silver dollars question

Post by Hot Brass » Sun Apr 07, 2013 6:35 am

Thanks! My original post regarding this particular coin is here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5567
It is a NSF variety.Thanks,Hot Brass

verdigris
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Re: Wear areas on Elizabeth II silver dollars question

Post by verdigris » Sun Apr 07, 2013 12:25 pm

Drawer rub !

That's what I was getting at. I'll remember that term. Thanks Bill.


Cheers

Hot Brass
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Re: Wear areas on Elizabeth II silver dollars question

Post by Hot Brass » Sun Apr 07, 2013 6:39 pm

Bill in Burl wrote:Why would you get a certified common dollar? The cost of the certification alone costs more than the scrap silver value or what the coin will ever be worth. If the coin that you showed was the "64", then who certified it and is it a qualified TPG? If it's taken through a flip, maybe it's not wear but rather loss of luster from drawer or flip rub. All I can say is to learn how to grade by looking at coins, in hand, at shows or coin clubs. Only then should you start buying them.

Thanks. It was definitely a legit TPG outfit(starts with an I) that graded this coin. I have seen other dollar coins graded as MS-64 by this company that have the same wear as mine,so I guess they(TPG) let that obvious wear slide even though the one Charlton Catalogue 2013 states that an MS-64 QEII must have no traces of wear.
I wonder what grade another TPG would give it?
I am no metallurgist by any means,but I don't think this wear at this particular spot could have been made by any kind of rub,other than maybe a million times???....I doubt it! Thanks anyways for you incite. Hot Brass

verdigris
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Re: Wear areas on Elizabeth II silver dollars question

Post by verdigris » Mon Apr 08, 2013 1:20 am

It was definitely a legit TPG outfit (starts with an I) that graded this coin.


Was it International Coin Certification Service ?

canadiancoppercoins.com - Did ICCS have a bad day?

Maybe they had a bad week. From what little I'm reading though, ICCS is considered conservative in their grading.


Cheers

Hot Brass
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Re: Wear areas on Elizabeth II silver dollars question

Post by Hot Brass » Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:24 am

verdigris wrote:
It was definitely a legit TPG outfit (starts with an I) that graded this coin.


Was it International Coin Certification Service ?

canadiancoppercoins.com - Did ICCS have a bad day?

Maybe they had a bad week. From what little I'm reading though, ICCS is considered conservative in their grading.


Cheers

Correct,it was ICCS that graded this particular coin.
I basically bought this so called "graded" coin,because it was my first"real" coin that I had spent more than it's face value on and sure I paid too much,but that was then,just to look at it and admire it from time to time,probably like any "newbie" would do. I also was using this MS-64 coin as a tool to compare all other coins with,so if this one is a MS-64,then all my other 'raw" coins must at least look like this one as far as wear,etc goes....but now,I am a little annoyed that I can't use this as my "standard"!
I have four other coins marked as being BU-60 and BU-62 which actually look better in these specific wear areas and these were graded by a non authourized TPG.
I take that back,my one BU-62* out of he four,(59,60,(61*),62) actually looks way better than this TPG MS-64,which is overgraded by four grades IMHO.
I will definitely be double checking with eagle eyes next time I buy (if) a ICCS graded coin,especially on-line. Thanks to everyone who commented. Hot Brass

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