1858 & 1859 (DP N9 #1) Help/Questions

General discussions about canadian coins.
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CDNMace
Posts: 123
Joined: Sat Aug 31, 2013 8:56 pm
Location: Michigan, USA

1858 & 1859 (DP N9 #1) Help/Questions

Post by CDNMace » Fri Oct 18, 2013 5:33 pm

Hi All... Made a good haul down here in the states today (Michigan). I was thrilled that my local dealer held back a 1964 off-centre error coin, and only wanted a buck.

Anyway, he whips out a bag, and says "I kept these for you -- they came in yesterday." It was a bag of 51 large pennies. (He doesn't deal in Canadian copper, and finds it to aggravating to cross into Windsor nowadays). Anyway, I've been at this for 4.5 hours already, and have only gotten through 3 of the coins. The 1858 and two 1859s (one '59 is far too corroded).

Here's where I need help. I am, admittedly, a 'silver & Wheat Penny guy'. Primarily American coins. So...

-My first question is regarding what is 'coinage', pertaining to the 1858 -- Is there a standard test in which to deduce if this falls into this category? (Without having to send it to NGC, unless need be lol). It flips to being upside down, if you will, as with all other Canadian coins that I know of. It also appears to have Error: #1923 die crack -- Does this error in any way assist in identifying the piece as 'coinage'?

-Second, is the 1859, in fact, a 1859 DP N9 #1? Have I identified this correctly? I cannot decide if the 1 and 5 in the date are weak/obstructed strikes, as well. (Clearly there is post-mint damage). There is also a significant amount of rotation.

Would anyone care to take a stab at grades/value? Offer guidance?

Any/all help is always sincerely appreciated.

Thanks,

Steve

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1859
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Bill in Burl
Posts: 630
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2008 7:41 am
Location: Golden Horseshoe, ONT

Re: 1858 & 1859 (DP N9 #1) Help/Questions

Post by Bill in Burl » Sat Oct 19, 2013 2:00 pm

Whether a coinage has a 'coinage' orientation or a 'medal' orientation refers to which side is up when you flip the coin over ... it's eithere up/up or up/down. The best way to describe Medal orientation is like this: You have just won an Olympic medal and have it hanging on lanyard. When a person comes up to you and flips it left/right, both sides will be right side up. Coinage axis is just the opposite .. like almost all US coins A left/right flip will have them upside down.

From the photos you gave, I can't tell you for sure whether it's a DP#1 or if there was some post-mint damage there at the 9. ALL DP#1's will have a die crack from the denticle through the right arm of the 'T' in Victoria and traveling toward the center of the coin. It will also have a D/C on the reverse from the first lobe of leaf 9 (below the 8/5) to the denticle. I've seen 100's of DP#1's and never seen one without those two die cracks. Your last coin shows wear that is indicative of dents/bends causing abnormal patterns... the reverses of the coins frquently show this because they were so thin.

If you have that many large cents, you should pick up a copy of Charlton's coin guide (annual). If possible, pick up a copy of the 2011 (65th edition) that has the 80 most popular/scarce Victoria large cent varieties in the back ... I co-wrote it.
Bill in Burl

CDNMace
Posts: 123
Joined: Sat Aug 31, 2013 8:56 pm
Location: Michigan, USA

Re: 1858 & 1859 (DP N9 #1) Help/Questions

Post by CDNMace » Mon Oct 21, 2013 3:49 pm

Hi Bill,

Thank you for replying. While I can't seem to get the loupe/phone camera combo to take any better photos, I did take it back to the dealer I know and trust. He and his assistant were both certain that it is double stamping on the nine. With that said... there is what appears to be a DC above the T in the denticle, but there is too much gunk (about 154 years worth haha), for a lack of better terms, to see how far it runs. There is definitively a DC by the 9th leaf that runs to/from the denticle.

Now, as for the '58, I have located several more detached leaves, and other die cracks on both the obverse and reverse.

Along with these I also have a '76 with several DCs and incomplete letters. Several friends have 'relieved me' of some of the non-key date coins from the lot. I don't mind that. To me, hopefully will spark some interest here in the US with our fantastic coins from Canada.

All very exciting... to me at least... and IMHO, a sound $11USD well spent.

Thanks again, Bill; and I will look into getting copies of your recommended literature including your co-authored book.

Much appreciated.

Steve

CDNMace
Posts: 123
Joined: Sat Aug 31, 2013 8:56 pm
Location: Michigan, USA

Re: 1858 & 1859 (DP N9 #1) Help/Questions

Post by CDNMace » Mon Oct 21, 2013 3:52 pm

...and, forgot to mention the 20-25 degree rotation of the '59 as well. Thanks again!

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