1859 brass penny

kwever
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun May 08, 2016 8:18 pm

1859 brass penny

Postby kwever » Tue May 10, 2016 10:40 pm

I have convinced myself that I may have a brass coin in vf-45 au condition, but am ignorant of how to proceed. ive studied it for several months and the very best currently known seems to be graded f-20 and is valued at 30.000.00... any competent suggestions would be appreciated.

Bill in Burl
Posts: 528
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2008 7:41 am
Location: Golden Horseshoe, ONT

Re: 1859 brass penny

Postby Bill in Burl » Wed May 11, 2016 3:26 am

You need to post a photo on here and some of us can tell by looking what it is. If it passes that first test, then I'd send it to someone with access to an XRF machine that can give you the specific alloy percentages. I know someone who does it for free and uses it for research data.... very reputable and a very honest dealer/collector/moderator. I have collected 1859's for 40 years and have probably owned over 2000 ... and looked at way way over 10,000. Brass cents were not made on purpose .. they were the result of alloy mixing errors in the melt. There are any number of cleaning agents under your kitchen or bathroom sink that will turn a brown bronze cent into yellow-orange tint so that it looks like brass. Do not be fooled by something that LOOKS like brass, because 99.9% of the time, it's a cleaner with oxidizing agents ... but there's always a chance. Just post a photo.
Bill in Burl

kwever
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun May 08, 2016 8:18 pm

Re: 1859 brass penny

Postby kwever » Wed May 11, 2016 9:37 am

THANKS FOR YOUR REPLY I respect your expertise, but im completely computer illiterate. it doesn't appear to be cleaned. I know how to post an image on facebook, I have one picture of sorts. I have taken a picture in contrast with other pennies. I have had several people say it appears to be brass. did the brass have other characteristics? this has die cracks and other errors its reverse is at 1;30-2 oclock. the nine doesn't appear to be narrow I don't trust sending it and imagine it being switched out. I got it in a rural situation in no. calif.and don't believe it was thought to be any thing special. could I send you a picture on facebook? thanks bill
Last edited by kwever on Wed May 11, 2016 10:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

kwever
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun May 08, 2016 8:18 pm

Re: 1859 brass penny

Postby kwever » Wed May 11, 2016 10:05 am

I am very leary around coin people due to a situation 2 years ago I had with an 1896s barber quarter in vf-25 condition. I took it to chucks coins in redding californa . and they offered me the silver worth of around 2.65 dollars. I was very ignorant at the time. I took it down the street to steves precious metals, and they offered 200.00 dollars. and I sold it to them. they were very nice .i was very naïve CRIMINALS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!low life americans!!!

Bill in Burl
Posts: 528
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2008 7:41 am
Location: Golden Horseshoe, ONT

Re: 1859 brass penny

Postby Bill in Burl » Wed May 11, 2016 11:22 am

I don't do facebook, but some others here may do so. If you get it to someone else and then have them either PM me or email me, I'll give you an opinion. Since the "brass" was due to a mixing problem with the alloy in the large crucible, the brass showed up as portions of the ingot that was then rolled into sheets .. the plannchets were then cut from the sheets. There has been more than one Obverse & reverse for the REAL brass cents. How big is the vine break at leaf 7? (count from the top clockwise) .. there are 16 leaves. Since brass is a little softer than the bronze, the metal flows a little more and should look more like a bit of a weak strike .. it won't be crisp.
Bill in Burl

Shylo
Posts: 213
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 10:42 pm

Re: 1859 brass penny

Postby Shylo » Wed May 11, 2016 12:23 pm

kwever send me a PM with your facebook I.D.

I'll have a look at the photo and copy it and either put it on here or send it to Bill..

kwever
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun May 08, 2016 8:18 pm

Re: 1859 brass penny

Postby kwever » Wed May 11, 2016 12:58 pm

Bill, you are correct there is an interruption at 7th leaf on the vine, and the leaf itself is not as well defined. please excuse my descriptive knowledge.the vine seems deeper at the break all the way
to the surface.
Last edited by kwever on Wed May 11, 2016 8:04 pm, edited 3 times in total.

kwever
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun May 08, 2016 8:18 pm

Re: 1859 brass penny

Postby kwever » Wed May 11, 2016 1:02 pm

Shylo, my facebook name is ken wever in bad mergentheim

henrysmedford
Posts: 114
Joined: Sat Jun 29, 2013 10:44 am
Location: Oregon

Re: 1859 brass penny

Postby henrysmedford » Wed May 11, 2016 2:33 pm

If you make up to Medford Oregon Rogue Vally coin is a great coin shop.

kwever
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun May 08, 2016 8:18 pm

Re: 1859 brass penny

Postby kwever » Thu May 12, 2016 9:43 am

Shylo wrote:kwever send me a PM with your facebook I.D.

I'll have a look at the photo and copy it and either put it on here or send it to Bill..

my facebook name is ken wever !!!
Last edited by kwever on Fri May 13, 2016 9:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.

kwever
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun May 08, 2016 8:18 pm

Re: 1859 brass penny

Postby kwever » Thu May 12, 2016 9:51 am

Bill in Burl wrote:I don't do facebook, but some others here may do so. If you get it to someone else and then have them either PM me or email me, I'll give you an opinion. Since the "brass" was due to a mixing problem with the alloy in the large crucible, the brass showed up as portions of the ingot that was then rolled into sheets .. the plannchets were then cut from the sheets. There has been more than one Obverse & reverse for the REAL brass cents. How big is the vine break at leaf 7? (count from the top clockwise) .. there are 16 leaves. Since brass is a little softer than the bronze, the metal flows a little more and should look more like a bit of a weak strike .. it won't be crisp.

Bill,,,,,seems to be like you described, the 7th leaf is not well defined either ,but the break is definitely there.

kwever
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun May 08, 2016 8:18 pm

Re: 1859 brass penny

Postby kwever » Thu May 12, 2016 4:38 pm

Bill in Burl wrote:You need to post a photo on here and some of us can tell by looking what it is. If it passes that first test, then I'd send it to someone with access to an XRF machine that can give you the specific alloy percentages. I know someone who does it for free and uses it for research data.... very reputable and a very honest dealer/collector/moderator. I have collected 1859's for 40 years and have probably owned over 2000 ... and looked at way way over 10,000. Brass cents were not made on purpose .. they were the result of alloy mixing errors in the melt. There are any number of cleaning agents under your kitchen or bathroom sink that will turn a brown bronze cent into yellow-orange tint so that it looks like brass. Do not be fooled by something that LOOKS like brass, because 99.9% of the time, it's a cleaner with oxidizing agents ... but there's always a chance. Just post a photo.
I was hoping for a reply by now, and found a picture of a graded brass coin. I didn't even think of this until you mentioned something. my coin has breaks simuliar to the brass coin I viewed, also there is a break at the 6th leave. a bit bigger than the 7th. I will be anxiously waiting for your reply and maybe you could help me figure out how to proceed , I am completely ignorant.thanks ken

Bill in Burl
Posts: 528
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2008 7:41 am
Location: Golden Horseshoe, ONT

Re: 1859 brass penny

Postby Bill in Burl » Thu May 12, 2016 7:22 pm

There is a vine break at 7 & 13 on EVERY 1859. I wanted to know how big or wide was the break at 7.
Bill in Burl

kwever
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun May 08, 2016 8:18 pm

Re: 1859 brass penny

Postby kwever » Thu May 12, 2016 9:13 pm

Bill in Burl wrote:There is a vine break at 7 & 13 on EVERY 1859. I wanted to know how big or wide was the break at 7.
I would approximate two of the beads,

Bill in Burl
Posts: 528
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2008 7:41 am
Location: Golden Horseshoe, ONT

Re: 1859 brass penny

Postby Bill in Burl » Fri May 13, 2016 3:49 pm

Since the cause of the vine breaks is part of the "hub" design breaking off (it's like a typewriter key with the design protruding), the break at leaf 7 went from a small break (1 bead or less) to a medium (more than 1 & less than 2) to a large break (2 or more beads). The brass cents that I've seen all have small vine breaks at 7 because they were from the first reverse dies made from the hub. The improper mixing in the pots of the bronze alloy happened early in the planchet making process (I'm sure that the entire metal sheet that the planchets were cut/punched from was not all the same alloy .. just portions of it as the ingots were rolled into the sheets.

If your coin has 2 or more bead-width at the #7 vine break, then it would have been from a later-made working die and, logically from later planchet bunches. That's not to say that there weren't some "brass" planchets that were struck with later dies .. it's just that it isn't really logical that they were. Again, someone get me some photos of your coin and I'll look at it and/or tell you how to get it to an very honest guy with access to an XRF machine. I had him XRF over 600 1859's when we wrote the articles on the brass '59's in the Canadian Numismatic Journal.
Bill in Burl


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