1859 Large Cent

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CDNMace
Posts: 123
Joined: Sat Aug 31, 2013 8:56 pm
Location: Michigan, USA

1859 Large Cent

Postby CDNMace » Fri Nov 01, 2013 9:43 pm

Hello All,

Found myself in possession of yet another 1859 Large Cent, here in Michigan. Wondering if anyone would be able to take a stab at helping me grade, price out this piece? Incomplete E (DEI), and rotation.

I just received my 2014 Charlton. Between the book, eBay, the coin grading on CaC... someone new to the 'Canadian experience' can very easily wind up VERY confused on pricing something out -- eBay and other auction sites are ALL over the board!

Anyway, thanks for any help with grade and price.

Steve

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Shylo
Posts: 197
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 10:42 pm

Re: 1859 Large Cent

Postby Shylo » Fri Nov 01, 2013 11:03 pm

I think with these pennies the rotation under 30 degrees is pretty common....

I don't know that many variants of these pennies.. I think Bill in Burl will probably help you there...

As for grade... I would put this one around Fine

Bill in Burl
Posts: 437
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2008 7:41 am
Location: Golden Horseshoe, ONT

Re: 1859 Large Cent

Postby Bill in Burl » Sat Nov 02, 2013 3:32 am

I'd say F-12, maybe F-15 on a good day. The highest points of relief (and where you will see wear first) are in Vicky's hair bun, the hair tufts just in front of the ear, her eyebrow, and the laurel leaves. You just need to teach (after looking at a number of 59's) yourself to loook for those spots first.

The good news is that it's an 1859/8 I think (but could be just a bold 9) ... the photo and the crud make it hard to see. Let me know if there are any die cracks that you can see and where they are. Tell me if the O in One has been recut. The shots that you have of the rotation are not on the right rotational axis. For me, I use the Obverse where the A in Regina and the V in Victoria are equadistant from 180. The entire Obverse was to be 'balanced' when they designed it and it's not where the N in Canada is at 180 degrees. And yes, rotations of less than 30 degrees are pretty common.
Bill in Burl

CDNMace
Posts: 123
Joined: Sat Aug 31, 2013 8:56 pm
Location: Michigan, USA

Re: 1859 Large Cent

Postby CDNMace » Sat Nov 02, 2013 12:59 pm

Bill in Burl wrote:I'd say F-12, maybe F-15 on a good day. The highest points of relief (and where you will see wear first) are in Vicky's hair bun, the hair tufts just in front of the ear, her eyebrow, and the laurel leaves. You just need to teach (after looking at a number of 59's) yourself to look for those spots first...


Hi Shylo and Bill,

First thanks for the tips. Obviously I have to cease applying the American coin rules. per the 20 degree rule is 30 degrees across the Windsor-Detroit crossing. haha

Bill: I cannot, for the life of me, tell if there are any d/c's? My reason for posting the follow-up picture of the 9, primarily, is to show the solid black crud that surrounds the vast majority of the outer obverse and rev.. I took as best a picture I could of the O (45x loupe). I don't personally see any recutting.

Personal vent moment: It is EXTREMELY frustrating trying to ascertain/obtain any *consistent* guidance or clarity for Canada coins. Many resources are vague, and some even contradictory. CaC pricing is very inconsistent with prices realized online (multiple auction sites), Charlton (I know Charlton quotes dealer 'buy' pricing)etc.; grading guidelines are WAY off; and then, of course, eBay Coins Canada... holy smokes!? That is an enigma unto itself (and other auction sites). IE. 1858, EF (ish), 5 bids, 1 minute left, $1.98. Same day: 1858 VF: Buy it now, price realized, $99.99+. So, I hope you can understand my confusion? I now FULLY understand why the Americans having been giving me piles of large cents and early silver for next to nothing. :-/ (Sorry for the rant).

Anyway back to the question at hand... I hope the photos help. Because these forums are the ONLY place I can get any form of quality help and guidance.

Thanks,

Steve

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Bill in Burl
Posts: 437
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2008 7:41 am
Location: Golden Horseshoe, ONT

Re: 1859 Large Cent

Postby Bill in Burl » Sat Nov 02, 2013 2:52 pm

Yes, it appears to be a 9/8, but I can't give you any Turner number (the ID for the die pair) because the photos are not clear enough and the coin has the Vicky crud.

You are never going to be able to get a 'book' price for any coin, American or Canadian. Guides are guides ... just that. You can't sell a coin to a book .. you need someone with a wallet. Ebay prices (if you look at prices realized from completed auctions) are only categorized as to the 'Title of the Auction". What the title says is an 1858 or an EF coulkd actually be a fake, a '59 or a VG. You can normally purchase any Canadian coin, except for rarities, for between 50-70% of Trends ... Trends is the bi-weekly pub as part of the Canadian Coin News. Charlton prices are about the same and CiC I don't agree with at all. Your best bet is to take all the info that you have and use your own judgement .. get the info whereever you can find it. I would think that up here in Canada, I could buy your coin for $30-$35 in the condition/shape it's in and by shopping around .. Trends lists it at $70 in F-12 and who knows what's under the drud. The 9/8 can be seen by taking a toothpick and GENTLY removing some of the crap between the lower tail of the 9 and the upper loop ... the underlying portion of the 8 will be in the gap.
Bill in Burl

CDNMace
Posts: 123
Joined: Sat Aug 31, 2013 8:56 pm
Location: Michigan, USA

Re: 1859 Large Cent

Postby CDNMace » Sat Nov 02, 2013 3:19 pm

Bill in Burl wrote:Yes, it appears to be a 9/8, but I can't give you any Turner number (the ID for the die pair) because the photos are not clear enough and the coin has the Vicky crud.

You are never going to be able to get a 'book' price for any coin, American or Canadian. Guides are guides ... just that. You can't sell a coin to a book .. you need someone with a wallet. Ebay prices (if you look at prices realized from completed auctions) are only categorized as to the 'Title of the Auction". What the title says is an 1858 or an EF coulkd actually be a fake, a '59 or a VG. You can normally purchase any Canadian coin, except for rarities, for between 50-70% of Trends ... Trends is the bi-weekly pub as part of the Canadian Coin News. Charlton prices are about the same and CiC I don't agree with at all. Your best bet is to take all the info that you have and use your own judgement .. get the info whereever you can find it. I would think that up here in Canada, I could buy your coin for $30-$35 in the condition/shape it's in and by shopping around .. Trends lists it at $70 in F-12 and who knows what's under the drud. The 9/8 can be seen by taking a toothpick and GENTLY removing some of the crap between the lower tail of the 9 and the upper loop ... the underlying portion of the 8 will be in the gap.



Yet again, Bill, your insight is well above any out there. And your grounding of my venting/frustration, appreciated.

I will go and get some toothpicks from Kroger.

Thanks,

Steve


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