Another 1894 large cent

[KEN66]

Is this coin a 1894 thick 4? What grade would it be? Thank you for any help with this.
Ken

[Bill in Burl]

From the photo, yes, it looks like a fat 4. I'd say it's XF-40 and a nice coin.

[KEN66]

Thank you Bill I thought it maybe.

[rjd65]

Yes a CERT 'thick 4'. The primary die break between the AD in CANADA and the secondary die break just after the A in REGINA is confirmatory. The 'thick 4' is not as rare as some may believe. At least 40,000 1894s using this reverse die were minted and it was paired with at least 4 unique obverse dies. Since I haven't yet identified or confirmed the existence of all 27 obverse dies supposedly consumed for the 1894 mintage, it could even be 5 but I am extremely doubtful of that. The pairing for the example depicted here was the most prolific of the 4 known pairings.
Cheers, RD

[Bill in Burl]

I always found the "fat 4" just a little harder to find than the normal, so it wasn't scarce. I probably had 7-8 of them at one time. Griffin showed 4 different varieties of the large 4 if I read his verbiage correctly. Since Griffin's book on varieties dealt specifically with date "spacing", and numbered as such, he sometime glossed over some of the things that we all look for in varieties, like D/P's, fonts, and such. His guide ALWAYS lists the spacings between the numbers 1st before even mentioning anything else. His GR 214 & 215 say "larger 4's and 9's' with 8-9 WIDE and lower. His 221 & 222 say just the 4 is larger and the 8-9 wide with the 9-4 very wide. I always liked the '94's with almost all of the varieties R4 or 5, so nothing really "normal" according to him.

[rjd65]

Very interesting Bill. I haven't been able to get my hands on Griffins' large cent references yet. Always assumed there was just one 'thick 4' reverse die, especially since only 11 unique reverse dies were supposedly consumed. I reviewed some old notes and it looks like I've confirmed 8 unique reverse dies and 22 obverse dies although I still haven't reviewed all my archived images yet. I think I'll do a date overlay for the 4 pairings to confirm the date digit positioning. I had previously just used a 30x loupe to compare them and they looked identical to me.

[Bill in Burl]

Keep looking around in old book stores and internet book stores for it. The title is "Some die varieties of the large cents of British North America and Canada". It was copyrighted by Jack and Brian Cornwell "Company of Adventurers" Yonge St, Toronto. And we all knew who Brian was(ICCS). Jack signed over the copyright to Bill Cross at Charlton before his death so the info could carry on. As such, Charlton has the rights to all the Griffin numbers. Bill Cross tried to republish the book/guide just after Jack died. Unfortunately, the lack of editorial staff and going through too many hands between Jack's son and the publisher resulted in new Griffin info and good numbers, but the photos that accompanied the text were keyed to the WRONG Griffin numbers. DO NOT use the Charlton reprint of the original for ID'ing numbers with the photos. We, who wrote the 2011 65th edition of Charlton with the Vicky varieties, completely corrected that new Charlton monograph guide and submitted it to be republished. Charlton balked at publishing a corrected revision until the first print sold out. I guess it never sold out. You can use the Charlton reprint for the numbering and description of Jack's work and it DOES include some new material over the original, but DON'T use the photos.... they are WRONG!

[Bill in Burl]

rjd65 .... email me if you want more info. The original Griffin had 12 reverses listed (I just counted the entries with the old Griffin numbers Gr-211 thru Gr-222). He opens up the 1894 listings with "There appears to be different sizes of the 9 and 4 and the larger 4 has a slightly bowed shape at the front. There are numerous "date spacings". Each new number starts with the 8-9 spacing, then the 9-4 spacing. Again, every Griffin text on varieties started with the date spacings, then any anomalies, given the room to include it all. Many anomalies aren't mentioned in Griffin, as he concentrated on the spacings on the Reverse, and didn't always include anything on the Obverse.